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We were supposed to be in the age of PWAs. That was the initial plan for iOS before the app store and 30% cuts on subscription apps.

Most web apps suck too though so I guess pick your poison. My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.



> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.

That's it, an app installed on a mobile device is a much more effective attentional hook than a website that must be either bookmarked or remembered. It is like inviting a door-to-door salesman to your house, of course they will take the invitation.


Also, analytics are not limited by JavaScript and browser APIs. Getting your attention isn't so valuable without knowing how to do it a second time.


> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.

I believe the same about the Youtube App, I just can't see why else it exists and I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful!


Casting from the web doesn’t work (on iOS at least) but that’s all I can think of.


Chromecast from desktop chromium works, so there's no reason they couldn't make the universal turing machine in my pocket do the same.


Desktop Chromium is Chrome. iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface.

Apple doesn't let other browsers use their own engine on iOS (unless you are located in the EU).


> iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface

uhh wow. How did Microsoft face antitrust lawsuits for merely bundling IE when Apple is literally forcing their browser?


Due to EU regulation, you can use a different browser engine in the EU (and I think Japan too), but thus far none have been developed (it's too much work to maintain two versions of the browser).


i've often wondered how Apple gets away with things like this, I guess its because they never gained the marketshare that Microsoft had


AirPlay should work for every native video element, or do you mean something like chromecast?


YouTube obfuscates the native video by removing the controls.

Vinegar is a Safari extension that fixes that on iOS and macOS. May exist for other browsers as well.


uninstall the app. my life is much better since i uninstalled most apps and I just use the web pages these days. To take ONE benefit from not using the youtube app, and instead using a browser: I can open more than one video at once.


> can open more than one video at once.

And a nice side-effect of that is that YouTube doesn't throw away the list of other videos on the page you came from!


Apps are also more difficult to intercept and modify on most devices. Companies like them because it means you can't use ad blockers or other privacy tools. It's also why they flip out so outrageously when Apple adds privacy tools at the operating system level, because tracking and abuse are most of the reason why apps are useful to them in the first place.


NewPipe mostly works except when Google breaks it.


There's nothing sinister there. Google is merely trying to break their own app in new user hostile ways and everything else breaking is collateral damage. :)


> I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful!

Uninstall (disable) the app, YouTube on Firefox mobile is fine.


They want apps so they could fingerprint your device, spy on you and get a lot more information than a web app.


Sure. They. They want. You know who they are, and what they want.


What marketer could turn this down?

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/loupe-what-apps-can-see/id6766...

Seconds since last reformat, number of times clipboard was used since last reformat, seconds since last reboot, dozens of other apps installed on the phone…

On Apple devices, so much is leaked to developers, and they will use it.

Loupe HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48608645


No need to play games and intentionally be obtuse all across the thread. "They" are the developers. A website has far less access to a device than an app and ads are easier to block. So they wrap anything into an app to gain that access and make ad money.


What access?

Like the OS native APIs that offer the very utility for these apps to even exist?

Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility. Project whatever conspiracy on that you want.


> What access?

Push notifications.

> Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility.

This is true of some apps, like the beer-drinking one that uses the accelerometer / other orientation sensors.

It's not true of a large number of other apps, hence the "your app could have been a webpage" charge. This is distinct from "every app could be a webpage".


> Push notifications

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API

> hence the "your app could have been a webpage" charge

No debate there. I was responding to the ever vague and broad "they want" comments.


> I was responding to

Responding but never answering to anything. You were asking a bunch of questions with obvious answers that you should have known or could have discovered yourself, but expected others to dig out and chew them for you. You even went to ridiculous lengths to pretend that apps only do things "because of utility" and everything else like data collection, tracking, ads, etc. is "conspiracy". That's negative value in a conversation.


> Project whatever conspiracy on that you want

You think a developer making money from their app is a conspiracy? Or that apps track you and developers monetize that data is one?

I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse anymore.


We are in the age of PWAs. I've created a few where I just host them on Github pages (no backend needed, no hosting costs).

And the P in PWA has become "Personal" ... vibe coding apps with no backend for non-developers for their _personal_ needs e.g. a create a job hunting app for my son specific to the types of jobs he's looking for. If I update it, it updates on his phone plus he can sync to his laptop via WebRTC.


I'm currently attempting to write a calendar app for personal use, and I wanted to go the route of a self-host PWA. Notifications are a good point. How can I create notifications as a reminder before an event? Alerts are part of the icalendar standard ("VALARM"), so these are clearly notifications that are wanted by the user. Is that even possible for a PWA?


You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page.

But, AFAIK, you need the server for push, though. It used to be possible to program entirely from the client with this proposed feature but AFAIK it's abandoned: https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m...


> You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page.

While the app is awake, sure.

I'd like notifications to work even if the OS backgrounded the app, and even without a network connection, like I'd expect a reminder to work.

> https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m...

Looks like this is what I need and it doesn't exist. So the short answer is "no". Thanks for the link!


> While the app is awake, sure.

That's not true. The browser's push service wakes the service worker on delivery, even if the PWA is fully closed. That's the entire point of Push API vs polling.


And the OS will never background the browser for battery optimization reasons? Genuine question, I'm not an expert on mobile OSs (as you already guessed).


The notification daemon lives in a separate process.


With the state of current Android locking down to iOS level of closeness ( https://keepandroidopen.org )

Since my last smart phone broke, I have held out on getting a smart phone for personal use. Sure for doing professional stuff for work, I'll use the work phone, but NOT going to pay my own money to get a surveillance device now.

If you are a business, and the you don't have a web site working, then yeah too bad.

Until Ubuntu Touch or something similar catches up and can run on old smart phone in a reliable way (not having to hunt down ROM like LineageOS ) it will be going back to before 2007 for me. It is more inconvenient sometimes, but life is also better in many ways.


sure, but that original idea was 20 years ago.


> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.

My strong belief is they realized people were prone to spending absurd amounts of money in Facebook games, so they hijacked "social gaming" and spent 20 years deteriorating in defense of it.

Consider this timeline:

- Apple launches iPhone in 2007 with web apps central

- Zynga launches "Zynga Poker" on FB in 2007

- Apple launches App Store in 2008 with single-purchase apps

- Zynga hits 40 million monthly users in 2009

- Apple implements IAP and defensive policies in 2009

- Hundreds of millions of people playing Facebook games in 2010

... Apple goes to war with, bans and eventually kills Flash, the core technology to these games, and all of it moves to mobile and IAP

... web apps deprioritized, arms race with other browsers prevented


> they want

Who are 'they' and how do you know what they want


The people deciding between delivering their payload via app or web page. Engagement hacking is not something we have to guess that ad companies want.


The problem is, I tnink, that most people actually prefer apps over websites - even just a wrapper - for whatever reason.


Possible reasons:

- No waiting for a page to load

- Home screen access (most don't know about bookmarking web apps)

- Discovery (where do you go to find PWAs?)

- Features (native apps have access to more platform APIs)

- Absence of browser chrome (more immersive UX), though on iOS the chrome can be removed from PWAs once bookmarked, using meta tags


Those are all pretty good. Some other reasons:

- well written apps use less memory, battery, and bandwidth

- security: apps go through at least some review while a web app could change with every reload

- scripting: apps often expose more functionality to Apple Shortcuts

- accessibility: the system accessibility features seem to work better with apps

- UI/UX: the best native apps are always going to be more responsive and feel better than the best web apps


In most of the cases, web apps are also much slower as well and the UX is also sub par.


Ad companies now. Just one sentence earlier you said it's people 'delivering their payload'.


Yes, ad (supported) companies are a large subset of the former. I am not sure what point you are attempting to make.


Ad supported apps are not necessarily from ad companies.

The point I'm trying to make that these ever-prevalent 'they just want' remarks are superficial, uninformed, overly broad, and vague, to the point of having no point.

There are many benefits to native apps over web apps on mobile devices, depending on the use case. A conspiracy against the people need not be part of every developer's choice to utilize the native platform and associated app store for distribution.

I know there's lots of horrible companies out there (hi Meta!) who will drive you to their native apps just for performance of ads and 'engagement'. This doesn't justify the conspiracy thinking getting applied to native apps as a whole.


Ad tech comes with a whole bundle of mal-incentives, like engagement hacking. If you are supported by ad revenue then your primary job is to get your users to look at ads. That's an ad company, for our purposes here.


Specific example would be Reddit.


Reddit, Twitter/X, Facebook, Instagram, sure.

All examples of first party social media clients.

A minority of native app developers, I'm willing to bet.


Probably a statistical paradox where most developers aren't doing mass surveillance, but most app installs are, because the number of users for apps follows a power law distribution.


The developer of the apps obviously.


Why this gaslighting? obviously the massive companies with vested interest in monetizing your attention and data


Nice and vague. Hard to dispute.

Simple fact is that people love to project evil incentives onto entities they don't even bother defining.

Not every native app developer is a 'massive company' with a 'vested interest' (what does that even mean) in monetizing your attention and data.




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